The TV OS Is Becoming Local Media's Next Battleground

The television operating system is no longer just a gateway to streaming—it's rapidly becoming the center of commerce, advertising and audience relationships. 

On the latest episode of In the Vicinity, Tim Hanlon speaks with TVREV's Mike Gasbara about what Fox's proposed acquisition of Roku, Walmart's expanding TV ambitions and the rise of commerce-enabled television mean for broadcasters. 

Their conversation explores why the home screen is emerging as the industry's most valuable real estate, how authenticated audiences could reshape local advertising, and why local media companies may need to think beyond traditional broadcast if they want to compete in the next era of television.

Listen to the full In the Vicinity podcast above or get it on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

Tim Hanlon: Hey there, hi there, ho there, everyone. You are In the Vicinity. Welcome. My name is Tim Hanlon, and this is our little weekly sojourn into all things local media. Welcome back if you're a return listener, and if it's your first time pull up a chair and relax as we get into I think, a very intriguing, conjecture-filled conversation with our friend Mike Gasbara.

He's a key ingredient of the amazing website and analysis portal known as TVREV. And if you're unfamiliar with TVREV, what have you been waiting for? TVRev.com has a lot of great voices, analysis, opinions and conjecture about what's going on in the television worlds streaming, and all things related, including our little humble column that we do for you each and every week called Proximity, where we delve into all things local media.

Mike is part of that base there. Does a lot of his own commentary, does a lot of stuff in and around sports local media, and streaming and operating systems and that kind of stuff, and has a pretty good pulse, I think, on just the overall tenor of what's going on with all those voices over there as well as his own thinking.

And we're gonna get into a couple of those issues as I put him on the spot for a couple of different things, such as the two major deals that occurred this week as we record, as most people were sipping or gulping their rosé over in Cannes. Fox was busy buying Roku, we think.

It's not a done deal yet, but looks like it's certainly on the launching pad. And Walmart has continued to move incrementally into the operating system space on the heels of their VIZIO acquisition a couple years back, to buy a DSP that's focused on small- to mid-sized businesses called Vibe.

We'll get into both of those deals and Mike's interpretations of those. But we'll also get into some of the significance that brings into the operating system, as well as perhaps how SMBs and local media can benefit. And we even get into commerce opportunities. Lord knows there have been many different iterations and attempts to bring commerce into the realm of television and video, T-commerce, couch commerce, whatever you wanna call it, dating way back to, I don't know, you remember things like Wink or even enhanced TV by ABC during Monday Night Football games back in the early aughts.

But this may be different this time, and we'll get into all of that kind of stuff as well. So I hope you enjoy this chat that Mike and I had a few days back. Please, as always, enjoy.

A little background of you and your role both prior to and now with TVREV because I think people who are new to these conversations, they're probably also new to the TVREV world, and I know its goodness, and we've been contributing to it for some time, but I'm not sure people know the the full backstory.

So backstory on you and then the TVREV thing and what it does and continues to do. 

Mike Gasbara: Yeah, so about 10 years ago, I started working with Jason and Fabric Media, really helping companies at the intersection of media technology, and which really at that starting point was this transformation into streaming, right?

Whether you're a local broadcaster or a brand just trying to advertise on TV. And then shortly after I started at Fabric Media, Fabric acquired TVREV, which was an analyst service which really started consolidating this information and looking at all the emerging trends that happened on that road to the shift to streaming from FAST to just wide adoption for SMBs, advertisers, which we're seeing those investments validated, or TV operating systems and the role they play.

So that's the transformation of my background coming from Fabric into TVREV. 

Tim Hanlon: And you do a fair bit of analysis yourself, besides behind-the-scenes stuff and production and that kind of thing. You also weigh in on a regular basis on a whole varied number of topics. And also, I think frankly you probably have a pretty good pulse about the themes and the content that's hottest thus far these days when people keep coming to the site and stuff.

So maybe give us an update, if you will, of the sort of things that are the biggest themes right now that you're seeing. 

Mike Gasbara: I think the obvious elephant in the room is definitely the emergence of TV OS, right? You had a big acquisition of Walmart and VIZIO a couple years back.

More recently, we're seeing Fox buy Roku. So it's really just this validating theme of the home screen and the TV OS and the glass is going to be the gateway into the future of television really. And when you start to take in this idea of shopper data and retail media overlaid onto that, you see the opportunity to actually make TV a performance vehicle, a real shopper vehicle, a commerce driver where you can actually map the brand awareness back down to the sale, whether that's digital or IRL.

So that's definitely one of the biggest themes that we're watching right now,

Tim Hanlon: Yeah, it doesn't hurt to have the father of FAST, if you will, Mr. Alan Wolk.  And I think he and TVREV generally have made more than a meal of this idea of the FAST channel, from coining it to validating it to analyzing it and projecting upon it as to where it's all evolving to.

I think, though, you're getting to a point that is maybe another inflection point, right? As FAST might be a major inflection point for what linear TV has evolved into, or at least incorporated or is part of now the idea of this commerce thing injecting itself into the stream, the delivery, the content, the whatever is very real.

Now, that said, and we can talk about some of these current pieces of information that have just crossed the wires over the last couple of days, but I guess I wanna start this sort of thread with this notion, right? I'm of a certain age. Older than you, for our audience, just in case they'd care to know.

Who's old enough to be able to yell at clouds now, so I'm gonna take the opportunity. The commerce thing coming into, quote-unquote, television has been discussed for, it's gotta be at least 30 years now. Weaving together interactivity and/or the ability to couch commerce, T-commerce, whatever you wanna call it.

So let me start with that sort of old guy yelling at clouds. How is it different this time? And convince me perhaps as to why, and I think there's some evidence as to why, but, I'm not so totally sold, so to speak. 

Mike Gasbara: I think tactically speaking right now, you're seeing pure volume come into play from an add to cart perspective within Amazon walls specifically, right?

Or even in the YouTube/Google walls. So that ability to actually link an authenticated user within a video or environment like Prime, and then say, "Oh, that dog food. Let me click that to my phone or send that to my phone, and I'll have that offer waiting for me," that is becoming more and more obvious to everyone watching TV, right?

But I still think that there's a huge hurdle that just has to revolve around human conditioning. So what does actual commerce on TV look like? Is it actually carrying out the point to purchase on your TV? Maybe, but you're gonna have to condition people for 10, 15 years before that actually happens, in my opinion.

But reducing the friction and bridging the gap between devices where people are already buying stuff and conditioned to buy stuff on mobile, that's what seems different to me right now, there are 

Tim Hanlon: A couple things in there, though. So you're talking about the mobile thing, right? So if it's a big screen versus the handheld device, is there a difference there, do you think, where one's mobile mobility is a lower bar to clear than, say, leaning back on a couch to make the purchase decision? 

Mike Gasbara: I think those two things are happening simultaneously, at least for me, right?

I am, and most people are, watching TV while on their devices and their phones and their tablets and whatever. So you are leaning back on the couch, but you're leaning back with a phone in your hand, which makes it quite easy, especially when you start to think about making people's lives easier, right?

Oh, I do need that dog food, or I do need paper towels, I do need, especially consumer product goods, or I do want to order dinner for my family on Friday movie night. 

Tim Hanlon: Yeah, so okay. But my years of experience would also say, and I'm not trying to put you on the spot, but it's just a lot of this seems to come around every number of years.

And you're right. Folks like Amazon are uniquely positioned, right? Because they're the king of commerce. Walmart bought an operating system for television too, right? So guess what? We've got another one that's both. But they're also a content company, right?

Buy all their stuff, right? Even Google, and YouTube, which is, nominally a content company, right? They don't have that commerce piece nearly as well done as an Amazon or even a Walmart do. But my point there is that the two-screen thing is as old as...

I remember back in my day the ABC Monday Night Football two-screen thing. It was a big deal back then where you would have your laptop or your phone, really not your phone, but probably your computer, your PC, and they called it enhanced TV, and it was basically synced, if you will, so that there was more stuff that was synced to the broadcast on the computer versus the other stuff.

And Wink, people remember Wink or even WebTV. A lot of these efforts to take the best of the internet, the connection and the commerce capabilities and wed that. I guess my real thought is, you say consumer behavior. I even think that maybe it's not CPG-type stuff, but maybe the best way, and we'll talk about maybe sports as the kicker here. Impulse buys, right?

Because people don't shop generally when they're thinking about making a purchase without sort of price comparison and all that stuff, especially when they're online, right? It's like reviews, pricing, deals, coupons, whatever that is. The everything is a push button away, and you don't wanna be, you're not gonna pay full freight for something that you can, a click or two away, save some bucks on, right?

So I guess my thought is maybe impulse is the way to open this door because when you're in the heat of the moment and your team is winning in the World Cup, you'll throw money at anything to get that jersey tomorrow. 

Mike Gasbara: Yes, totally, and I think that's why you see things like TikTok Shop taking off, right?

TikTok Shop is based on striking a chord with someone, making them feel like they need a product, and then being able to purchase that thing immediately.

Tim Hanlon: The whatnot is another one, right? Okay, so let's pull on this thread further. There have been channels, 24/7 channels devoted to television commerce for years.

Yeah, you go into that thinking, "Okay, it's infotainment, and I'll pick up the..." I guess I'm just struggling to figure out what will be the catalyst. I think more of the architecture and the infrastructure is in place, right?

So to your point, Amazon is what it is. Walmart buying Vibe, we'll talk about that in a few minutes, and having previously purchased VIZIO to get into the operating system. Great. Infrastructure's starting to make itself legit. What's it gonna take for that last mile to get consumers to take this as more of a convenience and this almost necessity versus a curiosity at this point?

Mike Gasbara: I tend to say that it's not gonna be some domino falling, right? The pieces of the puzzle are coming into place, to your point, from an infrastructure, a technology standpoint, but it does take human conditioning, and humans are creatures of habit, right? So it's gonna take... look at QR codes. Five, 10 years ago, everyone was throwing a QR code on a TV screen with streaming and calling it performance TV, and people were like, "What the hell? I'm not scanning this thing. I can't even get my phone out in time." 

Tim Hanlon: Creative people at the agencies who did wanna have their beautiful creative. 

Mike Gasbara: Yeah. But now, even if you look at data from a QR code perspective and the integrations into TV ads, it's moving in a promising direction, call it.

But that again, five, 10 years ago. So that's where my thing is you always have to just remember that on the other side of the ad is a person, and that person is not gonna just randomly or all of a sudden say, "Oh, I'm gonna purchase things on TV starting now, starting today."

It starts with one, it escalates, and I think to your point, it's about the convenience factor, and it's all these trends converging, like having Uber Eats delivered to your house or the delivery service delivering your groceries. I don't use that, so I forget the name of it.

Tim Hanlon: Yeah, instead of Instacart-ing your television, right?

Mike Gasbara: Instacart, that's it. 100%. 

Tim Hanlon: Yeah, sure, a Taco Bell ad and maybe a DoorDash or something. I think that it's almost so let's put the infrastructure growth in what are the scenarios by which that could be truly taken advantage of?

I think back to my years of history and experience, and perhaps suggest that, maybe what you're kinda getting at, is that it's maybe not a purchase now mindset, right? But maybe the intent to purchase kind of mindset. So take a step or two backwards, right? Where in essence you're enabling a marketer and a media company to allow people to, if you will, purposefully opt in, right?

Knowingly, but maybe also unknowingly, where it's the old 1-800 thing, right? Or it's the old, you're logging in and stuff on the website, right? And responding with an offer, a discount, some kind of limited token that allows you to get something. Because you're in the moment of watching, or maybe if you're two-screening or watching sports and stuff, multi-screening, right?

You're interested.

Mike Gasbara: Yes. Leave me a note. Help me build my cart for later, for when I go shopping. 

Tim Hanlon: Get back to me later when I'm less crazy, and I can truly think through this stuff, or take advantage of it. And yeah, incentivize me, right?

That's no different than the old world of promotional marketing and couponing and that kinda stuff. You just bring that in context, and that'll give people an incentive to very lazily push a button once, 'cause the infrastructure's already there. And then it's fulfillment. Then the game is fulfillment.

Mike Gasbara: Exactly, and there's measurement on the back end of it where you're finally saying, "Oh yeah, sure. Maybe he pressed add to cart on his TV a week ago, but he bought it on Sunday when he was doing his digital shopping trip." The other thing, though, that I always say is in the current economic climate or whatever you wanna say, like nothing political here, but I think there's a lot of people that, to your point of couponing, are just looking for the best deal.

Tim Hanlon: But yeah so I think I'll run with that. In the old days, it would be there's a coupon in a circular, something printed or whatever. You'd clip that out, and the media company doesn't really know if it was successful or not.

But certainly the marketer will, because the coupon was redeemed at retail, and then a couple of months later they'll find out that it came from that particular newspaper or magazine or whatever. Now, though, this is literally a whole chain of information, right?

When people push that button to get that coupon it's a trackable code, if you will, that will probably give the marketer a head start in terms of loyalty or building a loyalty thing, or perhaps convincing them to become a loyal customer over time. Because they were at least incentivized to get that coupon that first time, that one time there was an ad that was running in a program that they were interested in and they were interested.

Mike Gasbara: Exactly. And with the competitive nature of e-commerce and all of these different products and all of these different SKUs and brands creating the same products, I think discounts are gonna be increasingly required from brands, especially on everyday goods. Because how many categories, actually, not even brands, how many categories are you brand loyal to? For me, it's not many, but maybe I'm an outlier.

Tim Hanlon: Here's another interesting thought, then I wanna get to your comments about the community and commerce thing and some of the local sort of flavors of all this. I wonder aloud if perhaps this is also an incentivization schema.

Wow, never said those two words together before in my life. To convince somebody to view content through one operating system versus another, right? So if I'm an Amazon or if I'm a Walmart VIZIO, maybe knowing that I could watch all of my subscription streaming content or my broadcast channels content streamed and stuff through that operating system, to know that I will have a layer of promotional goodness that will make itself known that I wouldn't get by watching through my Sony or my Samsung TV or something else.

I wonder if the OS wars go to another level where there's a structure or a component of one's viewing to encourage you to watch through that operating system because you'll know you'll get more offers and stuff. And Amazon seems literally and figuratively primed, so to speak, to do that.

Sure. Watch your ad-supported HBO Max subscription through the Amazon Prime structure. 

So that there's a relationship and an overlay where the Amazon stuff will be interconnected commerce-wise.

Mike Gasbara: I think it's a great idea. I wouldn't be surprised if that starts to emerge as a trend.

Even just to your point from a content perspective, sometimes I log into my TV, my OS, and I wanna watch something specifically or a sports game, and it's there front and center, but I'm like, "Oh, wait, it's there, too? I can actually watch this over here. I'm conditioned to watch it over here. I'm gonna watch it over there."

But same kind of idea, and I think with simulcasting or whatever multiple distributors of all this content, it's a way to stand out. 

Tim Hanlon: One of the things you brought up in the lead up for this conversation are two of the sort of major news stories as we record this at the end of June here.

Let's talk about the Roku thing and the likelihood of Fox purchasing it, all things being equal. Yeah. I think everybody recognizes now, if they haven't already, that the ability of the home screen to be the real lever, and maybe we just discovered another value proposition for that.

But you also think it's not just that, right? There's talk on the local front, because I think it's a really interesting point where there could be some real differentiation beyond just Fox highlighting shows that they own and operate. 

Mike Gasbara: Yeah, so you tell me if you think this is crazy, but w- when I heard Fox Roku News, everyone was talking about, oh it provides Fox an opportunity to use home screen inventory and stuff.

But to the point of our earlier conversation, it's like TV conditioning, it takes time. Everyone's going in this direction of commerce, but Fox's roots as a broadcaster, local media company, and now expanding out and understanding that they need to be creating media for people wherever they are, younger generations, social, wherever.

They have all these boots on the grounds. They have all these media teams that are producing this stuff. It seems like An, an obvious opportunity to create some sort of community OS or community TV OS, right? Where you're logging on and instead of, say, the Uber Eats, it's a new restaurant that opened down the street from you, or it's, "Hey, there are fireworks happening for the Fourth of July in Greer, South Carolina, down the street from you this weekend on Saturday.

There's gonna be food trucks." Integrating those media elements that they're already producing into the OS seems like it could actually have a transformational impact on, and drive the deepening relationship that people have with their TVs. 

Tim Hanlon: Yeah I don't disagree, and I think a Fox both owned and operated stations as well as those that are affiliated, i.e. not owned by Fox, could more immediately make that proposition happen, right? Where local station brands are now, they're flailing and they're trying to get as much value added to a marketer than just the linear television ad buy, right? And just by adding CTV inventory from other sources, that's more of a Band-Aid than it is anything else.

But I think maybe to your point can you offer that sort of embedded commerce and other stuff to a marketer that watching in the Roku environment, anything that Fox or Fox station or Fox-affiliated station there's an enhancement capability that would allow them to make that marketer more targeted, more beyond the DMA, right? I think it's a really interesting concept. 

Mike Gasbara: And on that note, everyone's talking about Fox and conflict of interest with these other broadcasters or non-Fox-affiliated stations, right? It's like a few years ago, home screen inventory didn't exist really, or the heroes, the experience didn't exist.

There's an opportunity for Fox to actually create inventory to this point and use it to help rising tide lifts all boats for the broadcast media company, the entire category, right? And when you think about it, they're working together. They have to be working together because they are flailing and because big tech is gonna take over if not. 

Tim Hanlon: Yeah, our pal Alan Wolk has this feudal media concept out there where it's all these walled gardens building themselves across. And I think the first, cursory look at this deal is that, okay Fox is kinda now building their own after having waited out, if you will, right?

Fox, after having gotten rid of their studios to Disney about almost 10 years ago now, they've really picked and chosen their battles, and really doubled down on live programming, especially news and sports, right? And so they've dipped their toes in the water of streaming and stuff.

But this is actually an interesting sidebar, because in essence, what Fox is doing is not building their own Paramount Plus or Peacock. They are essentially purchasing one of the largest general operating systems which is all things to all people, where they can bring, or at least highlight, their live and linear stuff.

As I don't know, as the crown jewel of the operating system. And they can benefit those brands more so now by owning the operating system, for sure. But to your point it's also the convenient place where you're gonna be able to watch everything. So in some respects, this is like Fox getting into streaming, but on a broader basis, right?

Highlighting and heroizing their stuff as the entry point. But not getting in the way of you also subscribing and/or watching the other stuff. I think the only other entity that may be capable of doing that is probably Amazon, only because they've been doing the channels thing forever, and they want you just to kinda log in there first because we got it all going on.

Why go to all these other different places when you can just embed those premium channels into our operating system? I think Fox is gonna try to emulate that, maybe without the commerce. 

Mike Gasbara: Yeah. And to the point of, I read your article this week, it's authenticated users, though. That's a huge selling point. It's not just an app. 

Tim Hanlon: It's a foreign language to broadcasters. That's really the point of that piece is that broadcasting has always fallen back on, we can reach all these people at scale in a DMA, right?

But to your point authentication maybe, again, going back to our commerce conversation it's like how do you convince a broadcast viewer to kinda opt in so that now, not for tracking as much as it is maybe for offer giving, et cetera.

Mike Gasbara: And just relationships and trust, which is gonna be a huge thing for the future of media.

The TV's still got this premier aspect of it. It's more of a threat or challenge on mobile and apps with the rise of AI and stuff. But authentication, trust, media, like getting people to opt in, it's gonna play a big role in the future, at least. 

Tim Hanlon: All right. One more question on this and I wanna ask you about your last thoughts on the Walmart Vibe thing.

Can broadcasters, TV broadcasters or other traditional local media companies, let's say radio, let's say whatever newspapers have evolved to, et cetera can those legacy media, local media companies meet the moment with this stuff? Can they, I don't know, swallow their pride a little bit and maybe become a little bit more partner-oriented to take advantage of this stuff?

Or do you think that it's just too hard to do because they've just built a legacy for so long and they just wanna ride it out until it kinda goes away? 

Mike Gasbara: I don't know. I think it's a great question. The Fox acquisition of Roku, especially considering the size of each individual company, to me it felt like for the first time the local media, the broadcast industry was not playing off their back foot, and it's "Okay, we need to move forward," and sure, that was Fox.

But to your point, I think the broadcasters and the traditional media, local media, realizes that we need to stick together because when you look at viewing time of TV and everything, there's still some obvious front runners out there that have pulled away from the pack, and they can't do this alone.

And it goes back to the point of even consolidation conversation that I've heard you have on this podcast before, but what do you think? Do you think that they can put down the swords? 

Tim Hanlon: Two things. One, the broadcaster has to recognize that they're not competing with each other. They're really all in this together, for better or for worse. And second, I think it's also they still have the legacy power of their local brands, especially when it comes to news, and the perception at least for some generations, of trust in their communities, right? To the extent that still exists, that's the major piece that they own and is their value proposition.

I think the strategic key is how do you translate that trust, that brand, and that value into the modern dynamics, right? And that'll be my segue into the Walmart Vibe thing, right? Because what is Walmart, and by extension, its TV operating system, formerly known as VIZIO, buying here? They're basically buying a DSP that is essentially focused on long tail local SMB-type marketers and marketing, right?

And there are two ways that can play out. I wanna hear your opinion on this, I think. I do wanna hear your opinion. Here's what I think. That's what I'm trying to say. Okay. Walmart and its ilk, Amazon, others, can just completely bypass these local media brands altogether and just go after the SMB stuff because SMBs just want results, right?

So give me zip plus four clusters and I'm good. I don't need any stinking CBS local news content to get in the way. Or maybe that local CBS News content could add value to it and/or be a more curated front door of comfort for these SMBs to get their message across and for consumers to trust.

I think it's one or the other. I think right now broadcasters are on their back foot unless they start to lean in on this. 

Mike Gasbara: Yes, and I think that to your point, broadcasters do have trust within the communities, right? They do have relationships on the ground for these actual local media companies.

I feel like there's a slight distinction between SMBs and the adoption that Vibe has gotten. It seem I have a feeling I love to understand their actual client breakdown, but it's much more digital-focused than the actual IRL community local media type of advertisers that are within the communities.

Similar to Roku, right? And Fox's acquisition of Roku. Roku has a big SMB self-serve. That's the direction they went. Vibe went in a similar direction in just Meta-fication or Facebook-ification of TV advertising. So whether or not the SMB DSP will take over and prevail, or they will coexist with the relationships of the local media companies, the regional car dealerships and the actual curation of packages.

Because that seems like a unique value prop for the trust relationships that have been built on the local side, whereas the SMBs are more just a long tail getting everyone access to this platform. 

Tim Hanlon: Yeah, look, if I'm an SMB or a regional market or that kind of stuff I should be asking these questions already if I'm not.

And which is asking questions of all my media purveyors is how can you help me sell more stuff and prove it? Yeah. And I think if you're just saying we're the ones who can reach the broadest audience most quickly across a DMA, and you'll tell us if the cash registers ring or not, that's not gonna fly too much anymore, right?

It's gotta be a little bit more attribution with data and that kind of stuff to prove because, and political advertisers are certainly aware of this too, with the gerrymandering and all that stuff. But how do you marry that broadcast DMA coverage with I don't know, zip code, zip plus four, and personalized kind of comments commerce type stuff.

I don't know. The OS seems like it's a really important place for all this to be found out and how to do it. 

Mike Gasbara: Totally, and I think what you just hit on is exactly why Vibe sold for as much as it did just now. Because they really focused on taking the exact meta playbook, applying it to TV, and saying, "This dollar gives you two back."

So that will be an important part to see if Fox can execute on that and bring some of that, which Roku was going down that path anyways, right? So I also wonder about the stack consolidation within. 

Tim Hanlon: Oh, there's more consolidation to come, I think, and that'll be for our next chat in a couple of months.

So, yeah, come on back, and we'll talk about what we got right and wrong on this. One last thing before you run. What can we see on TVREV generally in the months ahead? I know Alan's got a new book coming out and stuff. I'm sure there'll be a lot of discussion on that. But in particular, areas that you're most specifically interested in that, that we might see more commentary from you specifically.

Mike Gasbara: I know that TVREV in general has a new OS, operating system, paper coming out. I'm particularly very interested in this evolution of the TV OS stuff as well. Also, the creator economy. I wasn't at Cannes, but everyone's talking about the creator economy taking Cannes. Whether or not that will actually make its way into television, as people have been talking about to our point for the last 10, 15 years, who knows if it will.

But those are a couple things that I'm really following closely these days.

Tim Hanlon: Thanks to Mike. Thank you for joining us. Of course, you can check out his musings and analysis at tvrev.com. You check out all kinds of voices there, commentary and musings. Of course the great Alan Wolk, Mr. FAST Channel himself. Jason Damata with some pearls of wisdom. It's all there for you on a regular basis.

Again, check it out, tvrev.com, including, by the way, our weekly proximity column where we delve into all kinds of local media issues. Our thanks to the team there. Besides Jason we want to tip our cap to Melissa Hourigan and Jessika Walsten, who do tons of stuff behind the scenes. We thank them for their support and help this week the support, of course, of Madhive the sponsors behind all of this madness, and of course, the great Jerry Payne, whose audio excellence we depend on each week to bring these conversations to you as well.

Thank you for joining us. Tune in next week, and we'll see you again here In the Vicinity.