Why Is Selling Local Media Still So Hard?

Local broadcasters can now offer advertisers everything from linear TV and CTV to podcasts, FAST channels and digital media. But the technology, incentives and workflows behind those sales often remain stuck in separate silos.

In the latest episode of In the Vicinity, Matrix Solutions President Brenda Hetrick joins Tim Hanlon to discuss why political revenue can mask local media’s underlying inefficiencies, how broadcasters can shift from selling inventory to solving business problems, and whether AI and industry consolidation can finally deliver a more integrated, outcomes-focused sales operation.

Listen to the full In the Vicinity podcast above or get it on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

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Tim Hanlon: Welcome. You are In the Vicinity. My name is Tim Hanlon, the founder and CEO of the Vertere Group here in Chicago, where we consultatively advise and help out various companies in and around the media and technology spaces, and I welcome you to the proceedings. The shenanigans this week, it's our little weekly sojourn into all things local media.

Thanks for finding us. We wanna segue into an area that we really haven't spent a lot of time in functionally in our various conversations to date, and that is more in the mechanics and the process of revenue generation, ad sales in the old speak. And clearly a lifeblood of local media has been for time and memoriam, and probably as robust a topic as you're gonna find these weeks as we lead up into the midterms and the political advertising expenditure avalanche that is now in many respects filling the coffers, especially in swing states.

But, lots of competition going on this quote-unquote "off-year season." And I couldn't think of a better person than my old pal Brenda Hetrick, the president of Matrix Solutions, to kinda help us zero in on some of the areas of how media ad sales have evolved or frankly haven't over the last number of years. The technology and the pipes and the infrastructure behind the process of selling advertising. How local television has modernized or attempted to do so as consolidation has become a thing.

Brenda's been at this for some time. She's been with Matrix for about 15 or so years, came out of an entrepreneurial background, and found herself over those last years trying to figure out and help and assist broadcasters in their quest to modernize their advertising sales infrastructure.

And you're gonna learn a lot in this chat, as I did. Again, let's get into some of the ins and outs of local broadcast television ad sales with Brenda Hetrick. Here we go. Please, as always, enjoy.

And I go back at least a decade or so when you and your PR and marketing colleague at the time, Deanna Kennedy, saw me fumpering through, some kind of panels and presentation stuff I was doing for some folks back in the day in the industry, various topics and panels and conversations and that kind of stuff.

And you were kind enough to explain to me what Matrix was and your role in this realm of local advertising. And over the years, my work with you guys was great because it really opened my eyes to the real blocking and tackling, the real day-to-day stuff. And as we've done this silly little show over the last half a year or so, we've dealt with a lot of issues in and around local media, but we haven't really gotten into the nitty-gritty, if you will, of the sales process, the advertising scenarios and arguably the lifeblood of local media for many decades and being challenged by the week as we record this in 2026.

So how about a little bit of background about what Matrix does, and how did you get there? 

Brenda Hetrick: Yes, we go back, and I was trying to think of where we met. I want to say it was a digital event, but I'm gonna call it digital because back in those days, we might have called it digital.

I'm trying to think of the hotel where it was. But I can remember we walked up into the main ballroom. Anyway, yes, we do go back some years. And how I got to Matrix is a long story, and I have a habit of making long stories longer. I started at Matrix about 15 years ago, and I came in through the marketing revenue arm of the company, and that's been my background.

I had lots of years in financial services. I did some work at technology transfer at both the University of Pittsburgh and also Carnegie Mellon University here in Pittsburgh, and worked with startup companies or research ideas in those universities that you could either spin out as a license or you could spin out as a company.

And probably brought a lot of that kind of, awareness to Matrix, and spun out with a couple companies and also then came to Matrix because some people that I worked with in those companies or in the Pittsburgh entrepreneurial or tech transfer arena had been working at Matrix, and I came with them to Matrix.

But Matrix has been around for some time and since I've been at Matrix, it's a SaaS solution, a CRM revenue management tool, primarily in broadcasting, local broadcasting or larger broadcasters in the United States. We do have some digital-only clients. We do have some smaller cable networks as clients, multi-platform, and this has all of course changed over the course of my 15 years as well.

Where we started, we were an installed base, but now we are enterprise wide, and I think that has been true of the industry as well. One thing that Matrix where we sit in the organization as far as revenue management and having the ability or native ability to have integrations with our traffic or billing system, as the industry had morphed into enterprise-wide views, that's been a very good thing for Matrix, and that's how we've grown our footprint from those days.

And now I'm president of Matrix, but I still focus on sales, marketing, relationships, partner relationships, and expanding our footprint in those avenues. I'm not the tech leader, but we are a software company. At our core, we're a media technology company. I will talk a little later about a new product that we have but at our core we're a media technology company, and we really focus on the revenue side, and have been advocating, maybe not the full 15 years, but have been advocating, hence why we really found value in working with you.

The future is going to be able to see that picture of your customer or your advertiser from the sales perspective at the AE level and all the way up to the C-suite who wants to see their customers by categories, up, down, those kinds of things. So we've been a champion of solutions that all work together and push and pull the right data.

Tim Hanlon: That origin story is interesting because it would seem to me that you were pre-wired, if you will, for entrepreneurial thinking as you spun into some of these companies and how they emanated from the college campuses and stuff. But it also smacks of irony to me that you were bringing that dynamism and that technological approach to revenue generation to the quote-unquote, local television station and group setting, which, I wouldn't say most people would say has been the most innovative on the curve when comes to media over the last 10 or 15 years.

Do you find any irony in that? And what did you learn in your early days when you saw perhaps some of the old school kind of approaches to doing the work of getting advertising onto the stations? 

Brenda Hetrick: Irony or maybe a headache, I don't know. Sometimes I think, have we moved the needle at all?

However, and I'm gonna say maybe not. Here's what's interesting. Some of our clients, some of their acquisitions, some of their going around maybe the traditional or the core technology groups, providers I should say, I see that they're working around and they're doing some cool things themselves.

For example, Roku and Horizon announced they're working on different things, a way to get data moving back and forth. And I thought, "Okay, that's great. That's being solved." And they've had to do it outside maybe the norm. So there are some pockets of that. But that's just happening, Tim.

That hasn't been happening. I came to media knowing nothing about media, right? So it's been interesting to me that we've been talking about this for some time, and I see very little change in the integration of the systems or the convergence of the systems.

And certainly some players are better than others. I think in the local space, I think Nexstar clearly understands, by virtue of their acquisition strategy they clearly understand what needs to happen. I think there are a lot of clients that do that. I think what happens in this country, and this is not a surprise either, every four years we have this major election and there's a ton of money in political spending, and it masks maybe some inefficiencies in the system because there is revenue being generated.

The midterms too generate, depending on where you are. But look, these larger local broadcasters have stations in the markets. A lot of them have built and acquired stations for political reasons. Or knowing Pennsylvania is a swing state, that these things happen and they have made their acquisitions based on political spending. Some elections we've seen that a little bit. But it always comes back, and it just seems to allow that non-sense of urgency to continue to proliferate. 

Tim Hanlon: What I think you're saying is that it is also on the spreadsheet. It looks like it's more revenue, which is great, but it's not necessarily solving the added work and maybe conflicting workflows that have to absorb all that money and get it to the right places and get it on air and do all the right things.

It seems take the money first and ask questions later. 

Brenda Hetrick: Absolutely. I wonder too, and I know it has changed somewhat. When you've listened to my career trajectory, I'm not just out of college. So I do think sometimes when I started at Matrix, there were some sales organizations that weren't necessarily as familiar with CRM.

Their AEs that's in local, they'd get the money from these organizations, they make their goals. They take a look at their pace year over year, and they just know if this advertiser hasn't been on, they're gonna be okay. But not knowing really anything about that, that advertiser or their client.

But as the sales force has gotten younger, even myself, I didn't start using a CRM revenue management platform until I was in my first job out of college. My kids have used CRM and revenue management in high school, in their jobs and so it comes expected that you get this kind of information.

AI is certainly not moving that needle further in that, I've got a meeting with an auto dealer. I need to know what they've spent with me before, what inventory they've spent, what they've purchased before, when do they buy? Do they have campaigns coming up?

We've got some economic indicators that might affect their purchases. There's a war. Gas is up. Should I go to this auto company and pitch electronic vehicles or help them do a campaign for electronic vehicles? I certainly think there are some salespeople and sales organizations that think that way, but I don't know that's across the board.

And I think that's one of the challenges, or I would say the trends in local, is where you need to be that salesperson. There is certainly value in local media. I could argue they need to understand that. I worry about it because at the core for me is newspapers, local media, you want someone to really give you that local flavor.

I don't want news being generated in one place and I get that news because it's the national news. I think we still want local news, but there is value in local and local media. Look, Amazon's coming to local. There's a reason why, right? We want these kinds of things.

It's not just local media selling their own inventory. But I think technology, whether it's been the technology providers or whether it's been the organizations who haven't been receptive to it, we haven't positioned the sales organization in the best light to take advantage, if you will. It's hard to take advantage of the consolidation, given how people consume media now.

But we haven't allowed local sales organizations to take advantage from a technology perspective. 

Tim Hanlon: How much of that is rooted, though, also in the fact that, and let's just stick with local television. I know that's not the bulk, that's not the full spectrum of the clients that you serve but certainly a big chunk.

How have you seen those last 15 years or so in terms of their abilities to evolve their product base, right? I think 15 years ago, this conversation would've been bucketed into something called digital, but now that has even morphed into various other permutations, whether it's fast channels or podcasts or other touch points, right?

There's now a broader panoply, if you will, of assets that can be monetized coming out of what used to be called a local television station, right? So it's more like a local media property. That's all good. That sounds like more opportunities to generate more revenue and touch points and that kind of stuff.

But it also sounds like it's also gonna make things much more complicated on the CRM and trafficking, and all this other stuff that has to now happen, which was already arguably a bit long in the tooth beforehand, before all this innovation and new inventory was coming along. 

Brenda Hetrick: The problem is it's siloed. Some organizations have it converged, but it's siloed in that if I'm a salesperson and I'm sitting in Pittsburgh, I need to go to an auto dealer and I have many things that I can do. I've got many products that I can sell. If I can't sell them all myself and know what the results are, know how to say to the client, "What audience are you looking to serve here?" And I can put together a plan that would encompass all of this, could be linear, could be digital, could be, to your point, a podcast, could be CTV, OTT. There's just many ways to get to this. If you can't do that in one package and really talk to your customer about what they want their outcomes to be, what they want from this advertising or what they're trying to grow, what's their ideal customer, where do they reside, what are some parameters around that, and then package up that inventory, you're not gonna win the business.

And the problem is you don't have access to all of that knowledge. And so you either have to go to 10 different places to get it. Sometimes you're not allowed to sell it because that team sells their product and you sell this product. I think sales at organizations incentivize differently for different products, and so I just don't think there is a universal way to get that information and then to present it to an advertiser or even an agency, right?

If an agency comes with an RFP and they have certain parameters, it's not always able to be sold by one person. You may have to go to 10 different markets to get what you want, or again, 10 different sales teams. If you want a linear package and you want a digital package and you want an OTT or a CTV or a FAST channel and you want a podcast, that could be 10 different sales, if you will. And that's just not efficient for anyone. 

Tim Hanlon: How much of that, though, is incentivization and sales strategy and CFO-dominated thinking, and how much of that is technological bottlenecking, right? The first part's more people and thinking and strategy. The second part is the pipes and the hardware that enables or are they both to blame?

Brenda Hetrick: I think they're both to blame. Coming from the technology side, I would tell you that we, and media companies have been at the table too, so we've all been advocating for this. I think there's some organizations who are doing it. Sinclair certainly has put together a complete look and feel from the outside.

Different organizations seem to have put together ways to sell their inventory. But it's still not uniform across the industry, and sometimes not across the organization either, right? And then I think there's still technology. I think there's the linear traffic, there's the digital players, the DSPs, where you get who serves what kind of inventory.

I think the results will take some time. You're linear, you get your results or your ratings or your outcomes. You might have to wait for digital from this or, from different results to package that all up to give to a client. I think it's multiple technologies not speaking together or putting that holistic picture to a customer.

But I also think the way local broadcasting, and there are certain trends and reports that are still so important to local broadcasters. And there's a local component, then there's their national sales that they're going to get or their agency-driven sales, if you will.

And I think they look at key industries and key sectors within key industries and key sectors within the greater categories, if you will. And there's a sense if there isn't a major event, and I don't wanna jinx this, but there's not a snowstorm or something that happens to cause this, there's always this belief that money's coming.

It's coming. We're gonna get it. NFL's started. We're gonna get a lot more because it's football season. College football, Major League Baseball. Sports drive a lot as well as the political part. And I think there’s this sense of… 

Tim Hanlon: Expectation. 

Brenda Hetrick: Yes, an expectation that we're gonna get this money.

I can look and see that Pete's GM hasn't put in the fall cars, and cars are coming, blah, blah. And I do anticipate that, year over year, Pete's GM spends $100,000. It's not here yet, but I do expect that's coming. I take a look at my quarterly and I'm thinking, "Okay, I'll slot that in."

But I don't know that we're proactively saying to Pete's GM, "Where else are you spending your dollars?" And being Pete's GM might say, "I can get, I need this customer." Listen, I'm gonna say this one, and it's not a great example, but it is a good example. I need a male.

I've got trucks. I need a male 18 to 24. I'm not gonna say these podcasters by name, but I'm telling you, wouldn't I advertise on a certain podcaster to get that group? Why would I spend anything on linear advertising? Because I know who's all listening to that podcaster or this podcaster. So why would Pete necessarily wanna be on my 5:00 o’clock news or 3:00 o’clock? Why would I wanna be there when I know this? Not just one podcaster. There's many podcasters, that's the ideal demographic, right? Pete's GM selling trucks, the ideal demographic is listening to these podcasts. 

Tim Hanlon: But part of that, though, embedded in that is, in not so many words, there's that linear television sales bias, right? Or your television reason for being, so to speak, right? Which is understandable because that's what TV stations have been for decades. 

And literally in the last 15 to 20 years, it's been that plus all these other things. And frankly, some of those things now are becoming predominant or maybe first-of-mind for local advertisers now, like a podcast perhaps or these form factors.

And the station may or may not be as equally invested, if you will, in those other touchpoints. They may be going through third parties like Madhive for streaming the inventory and all that kind of stuff. And I guess the reality is how does a local television linear ad sales proposition evolve more quickly to becoming more of a full slate of ad opportunities that may or may not have linear attached to them?

It sounds to me, based on the way you describe it, and tell me if I'm wrong, is that linear is always this expected kernel of the sale, and all the other stuff is just the negotiable and/or we can fan out or not. When it sounds like maybe some of these advertisers maybe want to think the other way. Maybe the television part is maybe more the alternative than it is the necessity. But it sounds like the business model doesn't yet appreciate or will accept that yet. 

Brenda Hetrick: You're right. That's the point I'm trying to make, and that is I know TV and we still say this has the biggest reach, the quickest and the biggest reach.

If you want, and sports is gonna be the example I use because live sports still can do that, we have Major League or the World Cup this summer. We have, again, what's going on now, the NFL, different things. You will get, if you want a Pittsburgh Steelers football game tonight on Amazon, if you wanna reach this market, they will be watching that game.

So there's no doubt that if you, and it's a bad example with the Amazon, but if it was on KDKA here in Pittsburgh, CBS affiliate, if it was on that channel, you would get the Pittsburgh market watching that game. So there is that. So I think there's always this sense that TV for your dollar or for, whatever you wanna say, you're getting the broadest reach that you can.

What I am saying is that we need to be teaching the local salesperson, and of course, this doesn't depend on having the inventory available to solve this problem, is to go to these customers and say, "What are you trying to accomplish? What market do you want to achieve?" And then thinking through what inventory I can sell, distribution channels that I can sell that solves that advertiser's problem or gives them the market, the segments, their demographic, who they want to attract.

And we sometimes do it backwards, right? We say we have this, and so this is where I can put you. I can get you a $2,000 ad on this, and it's gonna be 10,000 people are gonna watch that and then you've got 10,000 people. But if they're 10,000 people that have no meaning to that advertiser, it's a waste of money.

So it's most important to understand what the value your inventory is bringing, and then- or delivering, and then tailoring it to your customer, to your advertiser. And I don't think we do that. I think people are trying to do it, organizations. I think sales organizations are getting there, but this is where that's also hard.

If I'm an AE, how do I get all of that information? How do I get all of that so that I can package up and take it to my advertiser? And I know we're not here yet, but when we talk about our new product Sidebuy, one of the use cases, and it is an intelligent document processing solution that's not just for media, but we certainly have use cases for media. But one of the use cases we're working on with a network was I don't want another solution. We use Slack, we do this, we have all of these tools. But what I know is if my salesperson has a meeting with General Motors, I want him or her to be able to get historical spend, current trends, current inventory that's producing well, almost putting a media plan together so that all they have to do is say, "Hey, I have a meeting with General Motors in two weeks or three weeks. Give me all of that information." 

And they want to query, say Slack to get it, right? This is where Sideline can actually surface, and it can surface that data for them. But they don't want their AEs to be in 15 different tools, and they wanna be able to serve them the information that may, and again, even all the way to the here's the media plan, so that when they go present, they know what this inventory's results are, or what this inventory will provide, what the cost is, where they're gonna get their best, and also suggest, right? Again, this goes back to the gas prices are up. Do you guys have EV vehicles? Are you doing anything with your EV vehicles? Let's put together a package for them. That way you're proactive with the advertiser. And I would tell you that I don't know that anyone is really doing that well from where I sit.

Tim Hanlon: Yeah, and I think that what you're describing is also how do you facilitate? How do you help these sales teams move from inventory sales knowing what you've got and getting rid of it, to more consultative or almost like a gateway type of facilitation thing? And what you're arguing for is there needs to be at least on the top level access to the various forms of information that will allow these AEs to be more free, shall we say, to put things and ideas and concepts together to be more creative in terms of what they ask either directly or indirectly in terms of inventory to be more specifically helpful to a client's particular needs. All right, so we're running out of time, but let me ask you this, because we'll have you back and we'll go into a deeper conversation. 

But what is your arguably unique perspective on what's really happened in the local TV space over the last 10 years in particular, but it's been happening earlier than that, is the consolidation, the group consolidations into a smaller number of larger groups. Has that helped any of these things that we've talked about? Is it making things more homogenous and maybe not more individually oriented like we discussed to solve those local marketer problems? What's your take on the consolidation thing?

Has it been helpful or not, or somewhere in between? 

Brenda Hetrick: I'm gonna say somewhere in between. And here is why. I get, as a business person at heart, I understand consolidation, and I understand the industry's current state, and I get from a local perspective, in order to be one of the few remaining, if you will, especially if you're public, you're going to have to expand your footprint.

But along with expanding your footprint is the need to expand your content. We didn't talk about content, but a lot of this all depends on what content you have. What's your access to content? And I think there are ways to improve content for local. I don't know of anyone really doing some cool things with local content to really drive "I'm going to watch my local station because it has this show, this content and no one else has it."

But I think there are some good ideas about that. So I think the consolidation works if you can get your content, and then I think you need to have the systems in place to, where there are efficiencies of sales, make sure you're doing that, and then where you need to have truly hyperlocal, you can facilitate truly hyperlocal.

I don't see in the current consolidation that we're getting to that efficiency of systems and technology. Certainly there's improvements, but I don't know that they are all the way to the end user or the AE where what the scenario just talked about is available, right? I don't think that they're there.

I think if you're local and you're in good markets ... And listen, we didn't talk about the affiliations, right? What's gonna happen with those? There's all kinds of things that I think it's going to be really hard for an independent local broadcaster to survive. I just think it's gonna be hard.

There's certainly gonna be examples, but I think if you're public and you're looking to survive, you're going to need to continue to acquire and consolidate. And I'm not seeing that the results of that have been that great or that terrific to date. That doesn't mean people aren't working on things.

We talked about it at the very, very beginning. I've been here 15 years. It takes this industry sometimes a long time to move to get to that. 

Tim Hanlon: I would also argue there's certainly a train of thought that would say that actually a lot of the group consolidation actually is only hardening the bias towards linear television first as the sellable in revenue generating thing.

Because it's the grouping into bigger entities, it becomes more of a necessity. A case in point, the advertising, right? It's a weird dynamic where you understand the opportunities to make things more efficient in the back end, but yet you're also sending a different signal to your revenue generating teams that more the same, and then we'll get to the rest of it later.

Brenda Hetrick: If you look at TV Newscheck, it has probably been a month or so, they listed the top local broadcasters and revenue. And I don't wanna get into details, but if you look at the numbers and who's generating the revenue, think about the O&O, the owned and operated.

Those organizations generate a ton of revenue given their size, and why is that, right? What are they doing given they don't have over 100 markets? What are they doing that generates that much revenue? Is it the network connection? Is it systems? We work with a lot of these, and I know that they are efficient and I know they do good work, but I'm always amazed when I look at that and think, this revenue is being generated by 20 markets versus 80 markets, and it's not that different.

So to me, is that owned and operated model the future? Or expanding upon that, sometimes I question the future of the industry. Who knows? Given the consolidation at the network latest approval, with Paramount and CBS and Warner.

There's clearly changes happening there too. So I'm not sure, but I look at those numbers always and think it's just where is that nugget of value that these guys can generate with less footprint than the larger group?

Tim Hanlon: Yeah, so we'll have you back to talk about that 'cause I would love to delve specifically into the affiliate versus network thing. The independence that might be coming to certain stations that don't even know it yet, all that kind of stuff. And the dynamic that changes maybe with the revenue stuff. But before we let you go, how about some unabashed promotion for Matrix?

Brenda Hetrick: Yeah, we have Monarch. And we are continually, as a SaaS solution we release monthly and we update monthly. We've got an integration with Waymark.

We are launching, it's available, we're just putting the launch together with our generative AI products. Account Pulse uses AI for the AE, taking a look at their accounts segmenting in what accounts should be growing, what you need to do, looking at external or economic indicators, pulling it all together.

And then the next phase of Account Pulse, which again is at the AE level, is what we call Macro Pulse. And we did announce at NAB that we were selected by Microsoft to be in their accelerator program, and Microsoft is working with us on the chatbot for that Macro Pulse. And that basically is the holistic view.

You could even think of it as all the Account Pulses rolling up to a Macro Pulse. So if you're at the C level, sales manager, market manager, you can take a look at the holistic view of your portfolio. Those are available. Macro Pulse isn't but Account Pulse is available now. And then we've launched what we call Sidevine, and it's an intelligent document processing solution which addresses structured, unstructured, dark data, lives in multiple documents.

And we've solved the need with this within Monarch because Monarch has a what we call locker. You've got a ton of documents in there. Our clients' marketing departments were asking how we can disseminate that information or how can an AE search for the best presentation that has automotive in it or any document that has automotive in it.

And we looked at using third parties, and they were just too cumbersome, so we decided to build our own. But what's happened with that is we found value with Sidevine. And full transparency, there are many use cases for media, but this is also a tool which we're very proud of that can go into any industry.

Legal, healthcare, where there's just, you might have some documents handwritten. You might have invoices. You might have emails, contracts. A good example in the media would be, say, rights management. Show me every contract that doesn't allow us to or has exemptions, and we can surface that data and then push it. Sidevine is not looking to replace a tool, but push it to, in Monarch's case, we could push to Monarch those exemptions or exclusions so that an AE would know this, this advertiser can't be buying this inventory. So Sidevine is really exciting. For me it's exciting because it comes back to the entrepreneurial aspect, and it's a new product we're getting to market, and it's also expanding our footprint outside of media into different verticals.

So it's a great relationship in media. It's where we've got a lot of good use cases for Sidevine, but it's exciting to be able to take it to other industries as well. 

Tim Hanlon: And the website is? 

Brenda Hetrick: This is a little cumbersome right now, but it's matrixformedia.com. But stay tuned. Sidevine is on there, but stay tuned because we'll be launching a new website for Sidevine very shortly.

Tim Hanlon: All right, my thanks to Brenda, joining us live and in person from the beautiful city and environs of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, where Matrix Solutions is headquartered. You can find out more about Matrix's media CRM product and solutions at matrixformedia.com. For is spelled out F-O-R of course. Matrixformedia.com. And let's see. You'll be able to see not only what they do, but also the good company, shall we say, that they hang out with and provide answers and solutions for. 

A thank you of course not only to Brenda, but our friends at TVREV for the infrastructure behind this show and helping us enable its production and delivery to you.

Melissa Hourigan chief among those folks. Also our pals Mike Gasbara, Jessika Walsten, and Jason Damata. Our thanks of course to the wondrous Jerry Payne for his audio excellence this week, and congratulations on his impending wedding. Congratulations on her saying yes there, Jerry. We appreciate you doing all you do for us and all that's coming ahead for you.

And of course, we thank you for listening and telling your friends and having them tell two friends and so on. More to come next week with our thanks. We'll see you again here In the Vicinity.